London's historic Central Criminal Court, the Old Bailey. Visitor's Gallery. January, 1985. Margie was in India traveling for free with her economist Dad on his lecture tour. I felt compelled to get out of the country somehow. So I grabbed an inexpensive Virgin airways flight to London, went to museums, saw a lot of shows. Londoners kept telling me I had to go to the Old Bailey to watch a trial in progress, that it'd be more entertaining than a lot of West End shows. They were right! It was! Here, almost verbatim, are the proceedings in Lum v. Sanderson. I blundered in somewhere in the middle -- you might say I second-acted this particular show -- but I caught the gist of it. Down-to-earth bloke Lum, had been terrorized by self-styled mobster Sanderson. Lum was being questioned by two upperclass barristers. The more obtuse and effete of the two was the Defense, who also had a bit of a speech defect, saying "w"s for "r"s like Elmer Fudd referring to a sense of "pwoportion" and stretching out the word assuming until it was ah-sssyou-ming. As I came into the visitor's gallery, the Prosecutor was asking --

Prosecutor

And Mr. Sanderson said, "don't tell me that your mates don't do it too." You explained to Mr. Sanderson that you didn't have any mates like that.

Mr. Lum

Obviously, Mr. Sanderson didn't know me very well.

Prosecutor

You said, "I've got a business, a new car, everything down on account. I don't have any mates like that. The only person I know with mates like that is my brother."
Mr. Lum, does the name Nash mean anything to you?"

Mr. Lum

Yeh, the Nash brothers own a club in City Road...

Page flipping all round. Judge, jurors, attorneys review the transcript.

Judge

Now, what did you say, Mr. Lum? Shorthand, could you read--

Stenographer

(Reads back) "The Nash brothers own a club on City Road in East London.."

Judge

Is that the road that runs past (inaudible)?

Mr. Lum

Yes.

Prosecutor

"Nashes? My brother knows a lot." Did you know the Nashes before this?

Mr. Lum

That they owned a club, yes.

Prosecutor

And that's all you knew about them?

Mr. Lum

Yes.

Prosecutor

Page 20, your second statement on that page, let me quote,

"If you -- if that other geezer -- he's a bit fucking naughty; and even you're jelly-eyed--"

Just so I understand -- "jelly-eyed" -- what's it mean?

Mr. Lum

A bit frightened.

Prosecutor

Did you think Mr. Sanderson was a bit frightened?

Mr. Lum

He said Nash was an animal.

Prosecutor

Did Mr. Sanderson tell you what made him "jelly-eyed"?

Mr. Lum

No, he just seemed a bit in awe of that fellow, that's all.

Prosecutor

He says here, "That's it, that's the last you'll see of them getting fucking naughty. One of them was getting fucking naughty with me".

Mr. Lum

They were threatening him.

Prosecutor

You understand that Mr. Sanderson was telling you that he had been threatened -- that's all I'm asking, nothing more mysterious than that. The essence of your complaint, and what you complained to the police .. could you have a look at page 37? 14 lines up from the bottom of the page. The section dealing with whether or not Mr. Sanderson should have handed over any money. "What had said to be --"

Judge

"What I had said to me was, 'Don't hand over any ruddy money--'"

Prosecutor

(Picking up where the judge left off)
"...Don't hand over any ruddy money until we know what it is. Then I'd know you'd paid it out..."

"...if you'd paid it out, I'd pay it straight-away." That's Lum, saying that. Then,
"SANDERSON: "So you don't believe I've paid it out.
"LUM: No, I don't."

Isn't that what you were concerned about, your prime concern when going to the police?

Mr. Lum

No, that wasn't. It was something else.

Defense Attorney

What sort of something?

Mr. Lum

That some sort of harm would come to me.

Defense Attorney

And that's what you were concerned with when you came to the police? .. You can turn to specific parts -- do you have the typescript or the manuscript? Do you have the passage referring to you and Mrs. Sanderson splitting up?

Mr. Lum

Yes.

Defense Attorney

Just read through to yourself -- through to the last paragraph of your conversation with Mr. Sanderson. Find the phrase, "intensive care". For whom did you first hear the phrase that you were "to be put into Intensive Care"?

Mr. Lum

It was a phone conversation -- private.

Defense Attorney

When you saw him at Mitcheson Road -- did either of you use the phrase, "Intensive Care"?

Mr. Lum

I think (inaudible) used it.

Defense Attorney

Did he say what the men on the contract were to do?

Mr. Lum

They were to put me in Intensive Care.

Defense Attorney

They were supposed to "sort you out". What did you take that to mean?

Mr. Lum

Physical harm!

Defense Attorney

When did you move into a hotel?

Mr. Lum

Just before the tapes. I'd just come home from holiday --

Defense Attorney

You had two tapes on your body?

Mr. Lum

Yes.

Defense Attorney

Were you staying at the hotel or at your parents' house? "So they wouldn't know where I was," it says in the typescript. Mrs. Sanderson was moving away, and... and what did Mr. Sanderson tell you -- what sort of people they were? The men with the contract.

Mr. Lum

That he was an animal.

Defense Attorney

How did that make you feel?

Mr. Lum

It didn't make very happy, no.

Defense Attorney

At page five is a very, very long passage:

"I don't know names. I don't know all these fucking people you're talking about"?

On page 3 at the bottom:

"LUM: All right, nobody I know has any reason to have a go at me. What guarantee is there the first one who took this 900 quid --
That's what I'm worried about -- what's going to happen to me when I return the money? Supposin' I say bollocks to that? What would happen --?

"SANDERSON: It's my money. It's my ex-wife. I didn't threaten her or nothin' like that.

"LUM: When I found her she was crying her eyeballs out. I don't know these fucking people -- but if they want to come after her, then send them to come after me!"

Did you know that person's name?

Mr. Lum

No.

Defense Attorney

Did you want to know it?

Mr. Lum

Yes.

Defense Attorney

Page 38 refers to your brother. Asked whether you had contact and you said your brother did. What kind of contact?

Mr. Lum

Well, obviously he had a drink at his club sometimes.

Judge

I have one quote. Could you turn to page 15, on the bottom? Mr. Sanderson, saying, "I can't mention name and address" --- and it was put to you and what names you were talking about -- I don't want to destroy a Defense point. The names. Do you think he was referring to the solicitor?

Mr. Lum

I don't know.

Defense Attorney

Thank you, Mr. Lum. You are released.

Lum quits the stand. Sgt. Dodger, 40ish, balding, takes it.

Defense Attorney

Sgt. Dodger, you were on duty on that afternoon. Did you make notes of what happened? If you need to refer to the typescript -- on January 8th --

Sgt. Dodger

I saw Mr. Lum.

Defense Attorney

Did you decide upon a course of action to provide him with a tape recorder so any further conversation would be recorded?

Sgt. Dodger

Yes.

Defense Attorney

Did you obtain a Nagra Tape Recorder and a new tape? Do you have it with you?

Sgt. Dodger

This is the original, and these are the two copies.

Defense Attorney

That was the tape fitted into the recorder. And did you fit the machine on Mr. Lum?

Sgt. Dodger

I did. I then went to a public house, where I -- soon after Mr. Lum and Mr. Sanderson entered. And I watched them through there until such time as they left the pub.

Defense Attorney

Was there a jukebox, and some people playing cards?

Judge

Was this a busy public house?

Sgt. Dodger

We understood from Mr. Lum that it would be a quiet evening, but it wasn't.

Defense Attorney

Are you acquainted with the Nashes -- have they a reputation?

Sgt. Dodger

They have a reputation for being criminals.

Defense Attorney

Frasers -- is that a name you're acquainted with?

Sgt. Dodger

Yes, I'm acquainted with it.

Judge

(Inaudible) Fraser just finished serving a term, and was released from jail.

Defense Attorney

You produce the foresaid cassette as Exhibit MJC-1. I think he then drove to the same public house -- The Perseverance Public House --

Sgt. Dodger

--in Tottenham Road. I saw Mr. Lum pull in, actually, about 9:00pm - half-past nine, matter-of-fact.

Defense Attorney

Did you subsequently repossess the tape?

Sgt. Dodger

Yes.

Defense Attorney

Subsequently, did you prepare a transcription?

Sgt. Dodger

Yes.

Defense Attorney

Did you produce a transcript as your Exhibit MJC-1?

Sgt. Dodger

Yes.

Defense Attorney

How did you get details on the tape?

Sgt. Dodger

It was sent down for a provisional transcript to South London Station. A rough transcript. We had to make many emendations. It took us 4 or 5 hours.

Defense Attorney

Are you satisfied they're as accurate as
you could get them?

Sgt. Dodger

Yes.

Defense Attorney

Did Mr. Sanderson say anything when arrested?

Sgt. Dodger

Yes. He said, "do I have to have these handcuffs? I won't run. Those are my boys over there, and I don't want them to see this."

Defense Attorney

And what did you say.

Sgt. Dodger

"Yes."

Defense Attorney

Meaning what?

Sgt. Dodger

Meaning yes, I had to put the handcuffs on.

---

Prosecutor

What form of record was used for Mr. Sanderson's interview?

Sgt. Dodger

The idea was we'd ask a question, the question written down verbatim, and the answers verbatim, and after he was to read it back and initial each statement as true. We finished at Oh-two twenty-eight. 2:28am.

Judge

Under these new laws, I think these interviews at these ghastly hours will be discontinued. Why didn't you stop at midnight?

Sgt. Dodger

To be as soon after the arrest as possible.

Prosecutor

I'd like now to read from the transcript of that interview. (Reads)

"SGT. DODGER: We're interviewing you about your trying to obtain 900 pounds from Kevin Lum with threats of violence.

"MR. SANDERSON: No, I didn't see Kevin, I saw my ex-wife. These two men had come to talk to me. They started to get a bit stroppy -- they wanted a thousand pounds.
"I'd just been to the old house. I wanted to get the children a snooker table.
...Kevin didn't want to give me my money unless I told him who the two men were. He said he wanted to send their names to his solicitor so if anything happened, they'd know where to go to. "'After all I done to you, you would've paid me,' I told him. 'I haven't threatened you.'

"SGT. DODGER: Where did you get all your cars?

"MR. SANDERSON: (Inaudible) sells me one. If I need one I borrow one from him.

"SGT. DODGER: Why is your wife terrified of you?

"MR. SANDERSON: Oh, we've had an occasional row.

"SGT. DODGER: Quite honestly, we don't believe that Fagin and his mate exist. We think you made this story up to frighten Kevin.
These two men are fictitious."

What happened after this? Did that conclude the interview?

Sgt. Dodger

Yes. Mr. Sanderson checked our written-up notes, and signed them.

Prosecutor

William or Billy Fagin -- what enquiries were you able to make that there was such a man?

Sgt. Dodger

I checked at the police station, and in the Police National computer. Couldn't find no trace of him.

Prosecutor

Did that computer search include aliases?

Sgt. Dodger

Yes.

Prosecutor

On January 11, did you obtain a written statement from Mrs. Sanderson? When you met the lady on that day what was her condition?

Judge

I don't think you should ask that question without notice to the Defense.

Court was adjourned. I had to leave the visitors'gallery. I optimistically ah-sssyoummm... that Mr. Sanderson was punished, and kept away in future from Mrs. Sanderson and Mr. Lum, whose budding romance blossomed, possibly even into marriage. At the very least I hope that no one has since attempted to put Mr. Lum into intensive care.

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